Posted on May 24, 2010 - by Editor

Pennywise: Bigger Than One Man – Part I

Fletcher Dragge © Imelda Michalczyk

These are interesting times for Pennywise. With the departure of lead singer Jim Lindberg late in 2009, web forums and fans alike have been discussing various topics surrounding the band, including of course Jim’s reasons for leaving and the introduction of Ignite singer, Zoli Teglas,as the new front man for Pennywise. The remaining members of Pennywise have been vocal and adamant Pennywise will continue and are in works to release a tenth studio album with the changed line-up.

They recently also embarked on their longest tour in years and after a few delays to find some time to sit down and chat with Pennywise in West London on a Sunday night, we manage to finally locate the large frame of long serving member and founder Fletcher Dragge who kindly offers us cold beers and secures a room for the interview where we can move away from the touring party and have some privacy. Fletcher is incredibly considerate in making sure we are comfortable and at ease before we start and I mentioned that I did seem them a few weeks prior in Belgium at Groezrock festival which he really enjoyed as has he the entire tour. In addition he has no problem to discuss in detail and honestly from his perspective the reasons for Jim’s departure, why Zoli is the right man and why he is excited about the future of the band.

Steve: So the big talking point has been Jim (Lindberg) leaving the band late last year and Zoli (Teglas) coming on board. How much of a shock or a surprise was it; I’m assuming Jim had discussions with you about leaving Pennywise. So was it unexpected?

Fletcher: Mmm (with a wry grin) it started like 15 years ago. So it’s not really (unexpected). I mean a lot of people don’t know or remember that the first European tour we ever did was without Jim because he refused to come. And so we said “ok, you’re out.” And we called up Dave (Quackenbush) from The Vandals and he said “for sure”. We went home (after the tour), Jason (Thirsk) took over vocals, Randy (Bradbury) took over bass and we wrote “Unknown Road” without Jim and went into the studio and recorded it with Jason singing it and Jim came in at the last minute and he contributed half the lyrics and a few songs. So he wrote some great songs on that record, at the end of the day at the last minute. So it’s kind of been like that for a while. He has made it pretty clear he doesn’t enjoy touring or being away from home (Fletcher said not bitterly but begrudgingly). He doesn’t really like being on the road, whether the reason is being away from home, or it’s too gruelling, us partying way too hard with all the crazy shenanigans? There are probably multiple reasons why you wouldn’t like to be on the road with Pennywise. (Laughing guiltily) And I might be one of them! But yeah, so it’s one of those things we tried to work around for a number of years, like we only did 10 shows in a year and we just felt for a long time, me Byron (McMackin) and Randy felt like we tried cos we didn’t want to lose Jim. But we weren’t able to go to places like South America or Mexico city or China, and we weren’t able to do proper UK tours cos we were limited to 10 shows at a time in Europe; so Spain we hadn’t done for nine years before this tour, we hadn’t been to Sweden for I don’t know how long and I don’t think we have ever done a proper UK club tour.

Steve: When is the last time you were in the UK, I remember seeing you about five years ago?

Fletcher: Reading and Leeds (festivals) and they don’t really count you know. We were upset about it for many years and went back

Pennywise © Imelda Michalczyk

and forth and finally the straw that broke the camel’s back was a Brazil tour and Jim said “I’m not going no matter what and I don’t care what you say and it’s not open to talk.” And I said “that’s not cool” he said he wanted to have 12 months off to do other projects; a book, a TV show (about being in Pennywise oddly enough) and so basically he just told us “if you want Pennywise to be a number one priority then you have to find a new singer and if you want to do it the way I want to do it then let’s talk about it.” And we wanted to do it the way we all wanted it. Pennywise has always been a democracy, everyone about being treated equally and having an equal vote. The things we sing and preach about we try and live and abide by and the perfect democracy is really, really hard. When you have been out voted, it’s hard.

I read an article with him recently where he said “democracy became a cliché, its three votes against my one and that situation didn’t work for me and I was forced to be an arsehole.” And I said wow; you said that in Alternative Press, you said it, not us. He immediately and he said he needed a break from Pennywise in general. Was burned out and not having fun which was apparent to us, he immediately, like the very next day started a new band, which apparently sounds like Pennywise. He is a great song writer and he sounds like Jim from Pennywise (slightly mocking) so he is writing a record and he said in the article “I’m calling all the shots now, writing every guitar note and every drum note.”  And they asked how it was writing the album, and he said “great”! If you add it up he just didn’t want any kind of say over what he was going to do, he wanted to run his own ship, and well great, go ahead.

Steve:  A lot of fans are uncertain, I imagine they won’t necessarily turn their back on Pennywise, or harbour conspiracy theories about Jim being forced out, but people might be surprised that Pennywise has continued on as Pennywise with a different singer. Was there any doubt or thought about changing the band’s name?

Fletcher: Well about three years ago we had a talk with him and said “hey this is not what we set out to do. We all have a vote here and you don’t get to tell us what you are going to do and lay out the law. You are not the dictator here.” And so he came around but he started doing it again. For me Pennywise was founded on the idea by Jason and I, that we don’t let anything get in our way; whatever life obstacles come in front of you, you break them down and keep going and stop for nothing. That was the policy for the band and so it became a problem. I mean “forced out”, I’m quoting him when he said “if you want to make Pennywise a number one priority in your lives and you don’t want to get  other jobs, then you have to find another singer” So I think he put a ultimatum to us and we said “ok” and he said  “I quit”. Then he put out a statement that said “I quit” and in the article it asked after 20 years how does it feel to leave Pennywise, and he says “well I don’t feel like I ever really left pennywise.” So I don’t know what’s going on in his head.

I think there is some regret and I wrote him a personal letter, and I said “hey man, this is what we love to do and you are going to regret this, think long and hard about this.” I mean we rolled out the red carpet, I’m not going to go into details but he wanted to be with his family, I totally appreciate that; I want to be home with my family; Randy has three kids and a wife he wants to be home with right now, Byron has got a wife. This is what we do, this is our job and it’s what we love and it’s rare to have a job that you love. If you don’t love it enough to be away from your family, whatever… (Shrugging his shoulders) We really said whatever it takes, we will do short tours add a few extra days for you to rest your voice, we really made an effort, and he came back and said “I want 12 months off and after 12 months there is no guarantees.” So we were forced and the reason why we continue under the name Pennywise is because we are going to continue to play Pennywise songs. I have been writing Pennywise songs for 20 years and I’m not going to start a new band that does Pennywise covers, ya know. Me Byron and Jason,we were around as a band a couple years before Jim was around and obviously he was a huge part of the band and one of the main reasons we had success. We will never say he is not a great song writer, a great performer and all the above but what? We are just going to stop playing ‘Bro Hymn’ because of one guy? Because he doesn’t want to do it?

Zoli Teglas © Imelda Michalczyk

I have used the analogy that if you have a hamburger stand and thousands of people lined up to get through the door, and one guys says “no I’m not coming to work for the day” and he has the key and puts it in his pocket, then the rest of the guys say “hey but we want to work and everybody likes hamburgers” but the one guy says “No!” What do you do? Fuck that you break the door down and get a new guy that has the key and you get rid of the other guy.

So no one was happy to see him go and we tried to keep him, but the motto of Pennywise is keep going. And with Jason dying that was the hardest thing of all, because I started the band, I think he (Jason) bought the spirit of Pennywise to life. And without him you would think we would stop, but even then it was like we got to go, we got to play these songs and Jason’s songs and 12 years later people are still singing his lyrics full blast. So no we won’t stop and Jim will go on to do his thing and hopefully he will be happy. The other thing is if you are not happy doing your job, then quit and go get another job; that’s our whole policy in life. And he wasn’t happy so he quit and here we are. And Zoli is just as crazy as any other lead singer but he wants to be here. (Grinning at the mention of Zoli).

Steve: How easy was it to choose Zoli then? How did that process work and did the three of you sit down and make a list of potential singers?

Fletcher: Yeah well actually Zoli was Jim’s pick.  He said “if I had to choose someone to replace me, if I had to say so it would be Zoli.” We toured with him before, we knew his personality a little bit, but not nearly as much as we know him now obviously. (Laughing) which has been a real eye opener. We tried out a lot of people, we tried Jason (DeVore) from Authority Zero, Jay (Navarro) from Suicide Machines, Efrem (Schulz) from Death By Stereo, we were talking to Jason from Strung out. We were talking to a lot of people, kids from all over the world, from the UK to Canada sending us tapes and a lot of good stuff, hundreds of people. When it came down to it, Zoli had the voice that fits the music the best. Our songs are pretty hard to sing. One thing a lot of people thought was without Jim we were nothing, they should break up, whatever. But Randy and I might write a lot of the lyrics and the melodies, Jim writes a majority but we have been writing lyrics since the beginning of the band or I have and Randy since he joined the band. So the song writing process is going really good. The people we have been playing demos for are really stoked, back to the old school of Pennywise.

Steve: How much will or has Zoli been involved with the demos and new material?

Fletcher: He has been involved; it’s a hard transition for him after writing Ignite songs. And people have asked how Zoli is going to sing for Pennywise (singing a high pitched lyric for us) with a high voice. But it’s simple, if you have a high voice you can sing a low voice too but if you have a low voice you can’t necessarily sing high. Zoli can sing a lot of our old school stuff that we couldn’t play with Jim, cos he is older now and it’s too hard on his voice. And Zoli can sing all that stuff no problem. So it wasn’t an easy transition; he didn’t just walk in and nail it. It was like “whoa dude you are way off base.”

Steve: I did read in a recent interview that Zoli accidently called you when he was meaning to phone another friend and that go you two talking about him coming on board?

Fletcher: Yeah he wanted us to do a tour with Ignite, and I said “well can you sing for both bands” in a joking manner. And he was like “what are you talking about?” And I said “I don’t know it’s not looking too good with Jim right now. And we are in a pretty good fight right now” and there had been talk before about him (Zoli) filling in Jim for tours on shows where Jim didn’t want to do shows; “like I can’t do that many shows in Europe” and we said “let’s get Zoli to fill in” and he said “ok”. So we were using his bluff but that never happened. But Zoli walked in (after Jim quit and came for an audition) and I would say I was a little disappointed on the first couple takes because I know how good he could sing. But this was about him relearning everything. And we went into the studio and recorded 17 songs live in a couple hours.  And we said “get in there”, boom boom boom, and it was like “no, like this” you can play a whole song through practise and tell him what he did wrong, but will he go back and remember it? So it was like “do this song like this, and stretch these lines here”. Our number one concern was making sure we had someone that could justice to the old songs, no one cares about the new songs, and it takes them (fans) years and years to start liking them.

Steve: And is that singing them or understanding the songs and where they come from that was important?

Fletcher: (nodding along to my question) Yeah that was one thing he (Zoli) wanted; to sit down with Jim and understand them and what they were about. I mean I think it’s pretty easy to listen to a Pennywise song and know where it comes from but that was part of it and visualising stuff to remember the lyrics. And we have a lot of lyrics and that’s a problem too when you are learning 18 songs, 500 words a minute. But after we did that demo tape I played them to a couple friends at a bar and I said to them “I will play you Jim singing ‘Peaceful Day’ and then Zoli and tell me what you think about the comparison.” And I would play it and they would be “man, Jim is so good what fucking bullshit that he quit the band. Let’s hear Zoli sing it” and then I would say nope that was Zoli singing. And they would say “no, it wasn’t” and I would say “yup it was.” Nine out of ten people thought it was Jim and only one guy, Jim’s best friend said “that’s not Jim” and I said “it’s not?” and he said, “no that’s the new guy”. I told him “you’re the first person that got it” and he said “yeah I know Jim’s voice” and the next song came on ‘Society’and he said “see that’s Jim, hear the difference, that’s Jim.” And I said nope that’s Zoli too. He said “what, no its not!” and I said “yeah it is.” (Laughing at the story) If you play them back to back, next to each other, you are going to hear a distinct difference but if you are listening to as a song and from the band? (Shaking his head).

Pennywise © Imelda Michalczyk

But I think there will be a lot of people that come to listen out of curiosity but I hear at Groezrock a lot of talk was “what’s going to happen here, how is it going to go? But we got a lot of positive feedback from people and on the web, hardly any negative stuff.  I know one guy at the merch booth came down bought a shirt and said “I will never come back again.” (Again smiling broadly)

So it’s like we knew that going into this we were going to lose some fans and gain some news fans. With all these club shows we have been playing we have been asking “how many of you are here at your first Pennywise show?” and boom, hands up and the first time they will see Pennywise is with Zoli and that will stick in their minds. It’s an uphill battle and no one wants to lose their lead singer but for us this is what we want and love to do. And if we can continue to do it for even 500 people every night instead of 5000 or whatever, I mean we have played some very small and very big shows on this tour. It is what it is and I’m probably most stoked about the new stuff because Jim was straying away from the more hardcore stuff if you want to call it that? And he has told me “oh you should sell that song to hardcore bands” (laughing) I would write some music and bring it to him and it would be my favourite song for five years but he wouldn’t be interested in writing lyrics for it. For me writing lyrics and melodies is hard cos I’m not a singer and every once in a while I got lucky like with ‘Fuck Authority’ and ‘My God’. Sometimes as they say in America ’a blind squirrel finds a nut’ and it’s a struggle for me. Jim would open his fucking mouth and the birds come out, it’s the same for Zoli. I’m like the ditch digger and would have to work extra hard to get a melody. But having these fast and hardcore songs for the new album and Zoli would be like “fuck yeah, we are writing a hardcore album, that’s awesome” cos me and Randy and Byron love the hardcore shit. And it seems like we had been tapering a bit more into the softer sound in the later years so hopefully we write a album that’s  more like the first two Pennywise albums combined.

Steve: I think most fans will be excited to hear that. The concern would have been, and much like for me hearing you guys at Groezrock, is that you know the songs and the voice and then it’s a little bit different or what you might be used to, but reserve judgement for the band until they finish the set.

Fletcher: And that’s fair enough and for me, Pennywise as I said is not about one guy, me Jim or Jason or Byron, Randy; it’s about the fans, and not like some kind of cliché. I really believe that without fans we are nothing and that’s so simple. If we go out and play and have only two fans, what are we doing here? And if we put out a record and no one buys it then what are we doing here? We are just four guys playing in a garage.  The fans are what makes the band and we have always tried to make the fans feel they are part of the experience and that they are equal to us. Not like; don’t look at me, I’m a rock star, I’m Prince, don’t talk to me in the club or you are fired. This is the biggest bullshit. They might be a better cook or bus driver or whatever they do –an interviewer- ya know? We do what we do and for us it’s about the fans.

If I was gone I would want them to replace me and continue on with the message and the message and the fans are the music and not so much the members. Van Halen did it, Black Flag did it three or four times, AC/DC did it, the Dropkick Murphys did it and it’s a shock but for me there isn’t even a question. This is what I do and I love to do it and do it as long as I possibly can and if you are on board and that’s what our message is about, and if you are a true Pennywise fan then you back it, no matter what. You say “fuck yeah!”Sure go buy Jim’s new record, by all means good luck Jim, ya know. (Adding sneakily) But good luck seeing them on tour.

Steve: Ok you have been saying the tour and the feedback has been positive, what if hypothetically the fans had turned their backs on you, and what then? Would that have affected things moving forward or affected you?

Fletcher: I think we would have carried on and do what we do but it would be pretty rough. But ya know, you go to Spain after nine years and 1700 kids go completely fucking mental, or anywhere we have played, like Munich, same number of people and they are singing the songs and they are not throwing bottles and not throwing Zoli off the stage. That was a great feeling and the camaraderie and the brotherhood which is what Pennywise is about, they stood behind us. And I’m sure there are people that didn’t and wont and that’s understandable. I’m not sure how I would feel if my favourite bands, like if Zach (De La Rocha) wasn’t singing for Rage Against The Machine. I know I hated it when Chris Cornell was singing for them, it just didn’t work. It was the wrong guy for it. Even though it was Audioslave, they couldn’t do a RATM cover. With Zoli he has punk rock attitude and a punk rock background and is the real deal. He does a lot of environment work, he has been rescuing wild sea life for years by himself, going out on a boat and saving wild pelicans or seals or whatever. He fits the part, and he is crazy don’t get me wrong. I say God said to him “good voice, bad brain”. Like “I will give you a really good voice but you are going to be tortured for the rest of your life. You (suggesting himself) you can learn how to play guitar and work hard to do that, but you are not going to get a special talent, except your hands.” And that’s part of the territory as it’s the same with every single lead singer I know. It’s so funny.

Fletcher Dragge © Imelda Michalczyk

What’s happened is with the beginning of Pennywise you had open communication; everyone yelled and fought and as you get old you know if you say something to someone they will get mad and will affect things in the studio, or on the road and you say to yourself, ok, I don’t want to go there.

Steve: Why is that bad for the band?

Fletcher: it’s bad cos the communication breaks down and then the song writing and it’s like:
Hey I think we can make this better.
No it’s done its perfect.
Well can we try?
No.
With Zoli, it’s like:
“Hey it’s fucking shit, it’s bad, and it’s terrible” and he would be like,
“What? But I have three other ideas.
Ok let’s hear them. (Mimics song)
It’s all shit. Let’s go, let’s start working” and everyone would input and now there is open communication and it’s completely honest and you can say whatever you want. So it’s a completely refreshing thing, whether it be about going on stage, what songs you are going to play, Jim also dictated what songs we would play; “I can’t do this one or that one cos of my voice.” And as you get older its harder on the voice, all legitimate complaints and he would write down the order of the songs but a lot of times it wasn’t down to a band vote anymore, and now we are playing songs we haven’t played for 12 or 13 years and that’s awesome.

Before we played for an hour and it felt like two hours and now we are playing for an hour and 15 minutes and I’m like “is it over already?” So for me it’s good to be on the stage with someone who wants to be there and can give it 115% rather than with the guy going “oh I know he is mad right now cos of something that happened here or there” and you have to get your mind right. That’s why I would try and block it out and play and my thing is to play and have as much fun as I can.
So I hope Jim is happy and he has success and we’re not happy he is gone but we are really happy to have Zoli in the band. And if we had had cameras on us from the beginning of the band we would be multi millionaires because we would have made Metallica “Some Kind Of Monster” look like a ride in Disneyland with the shit that has gone on. I mean we have almost been in like five fistfights. Jim hardly got yelled at but Zoli is fucking crazy, he just drives you insane (laughing).

We talked about long standing bands and how they have survived as long as they do and how certain lead singers can be more difficult for certain bands to deal with.

Fletcher: The thing is Pennywise is Pennywise and we wouldn’t be where we are today without Jim; he was a very important part but so is Byron and Jason and everybody.  It’s like that relationship where you get married where you know it’s not working out and you hang on and it doesn’t work and doesn’t work, then you get divorced and find a new chick and you enjoy your life again, like “fuck yeah” you feel alive again, it’s kind of like that. Provided we don’t have to pay him too much alimony (laughing).

Steve: But it must be good that Zoli is on board with Jim’s blessing not that you need it and there isn’t too much bad blood?

Fletcher: Well there is some bad blood but only because we’re upset he left.

Steve: And it’s still fresh.

Fletcher: Yeah it’s still fresh and there is nothing crazy, it’s just I don’t know? It will take time for it to heal up and be like “hey how is it going?” and “yeah its cool”. Right now I’m still a little pissed off. You have this great fucking thing- travel the world, meet great people, drink beer and see amazing places and have thousands of these kids screaming your lyrics. It doesn’t get better than that. I don’t think. But its family and he put in a lot of years and you have to respect that. But it’s an open wound, still but we respect that.

Steve: You mentioned demoing songs earlier- do you have a plans for the new release?

Fletcher: We plan to demo pretty hard when we get back after this tour. We hope to have a bulk of the record written before the Warped Tour. As far as recording it I’m not sure when we will do it. We were hoping to do it before Christmas but maybe in the New Year. We have been talking to Epitaph Records of course.

Steve: I was going to ask about that cos your last release “Reason To Believe” was via MySpace and Epitaph had some involvement

Zoli Teglas © Imelda Michalczyk

though.

Fletcher: Yeah they were still involved (Epitaph) over here and in Europe and Australia. We said at the time to Epitaph what do you think (about the MySpace venture) and they said “it would be a great fucking opportunity for you guys to give away a lot of records.” We had over 500 000 record downloads which was great, maybe not for the wallet (grinning). But we hope with this new record we might have 100 000 new fans. Last time it was free and this time they might pay for it. But music is free anyways so our main thing is to put out a record where everyone is going to say “holy shit, how the fuck did they do this?” and I’m pretty sure they will. But there will be a certain percentage that will say”this doesn’t sound like Jim”. Of course not, it’s not Jim! (Fletcher laughs at this and adds) My favourite quote is when I see “it’s not the same without Jim” yeah it’s not the same, it’s not Jim! He is not in the band, its different but its Zoli, so do you still want to come and sing ‘Fuck Authory’ and “Bro Hymn’ live and get drunk and be a part of the brotherhood or do you want to sit and fucking whine.

Steve: And is more touring on the cards?

Fletcher: Well we have got this tour which is the longest European tour we have done in I don’t how long, and this is the last show of tour. It’s been almost a month where we are normally limited to 10 shows whereas we have done 20.And then we have the Warped tour, 20 shows and a couple days off then we head to Indonesia and China and we come back and we have about 12 days off to do a complete Canadian tour which we haven’t done in many years.

Not only is it the right way to do things but I always felt we had an obligation the fans. They buy the records they buy the t-shirts, sit in the bedroom or the car and listen to it and wait. Just like I wait for Rage Against The Machine to come play or Pantera, you wait and when it comes you go, fuck yeah. You look forward to it and you are at the bar and your favourite band s in town and you walk away from that night and you hold that for a year.  And if your band never comes?  We owe it to the fans and that sentiment wasn’t completely shared with Jim. We got offers to go to South America 12 years ago, we have been there twice now; twice in 12 years and some great shows.(sounding frustrated) We haven’t been to Argentina and only Brazil. It opens the door for more adventure and more stoking people out and that’s what it’s about. We have had a career for 20 years with 12 year olds in the front row and 45 year olds in the back row drinking beer and as long as they walk away feeling they got their money’s worth that’s all that we care about.

Steve: Last question not related to Pennywise. We recently interviewed Ron Emory (T.S.O.L) who has released his solo record “Walk That Walk” with a lot of collaborations and you were involved. How stoked were you to be involved?

Fletcher: Yeah I was really stoked. We actually played a show for $5 in December in Long Beach, California; T.S.O.L, Suicide Machines, Pennywise and Danzig. 12 000 people; it was insane. He was talking to me about it there and I was like, fuck yeah. He was saying there was a part that was right up my alley and so I went down to the Hurley studios to do that. I mean T.S.O.L is one of my favourite bands as you can see (Fletcher showing us a basic T.S.O.L tattoo on his arm) Mike Roche did this for me, one of his first tattoos. I grew up learning every word and loving everything about them. And his guitar work is phenomenal, I can’t play like that and some of the songs and his technique, there is nothing like that in the world. So it was an honour to go to the studio and hang out with them and play and I just want to hear the record, you know. Those guys have been part of my life since 1980 and one of the first real punk shows I have ever been to.

In Part II we briefly have a chat with Zoli Teglas and how he is enjoying his time and transition to Pennywise as well as discussing something close to his heart, Sea Shepherd.